[xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Break the XHTML validity to catch HTML5 validy
Hello developers. I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated). Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5. The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5. So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway). WDYT? Guillaume [1] The code that looks for ref="_blank": https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
+0 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <gdelhumeau@xwiki.com> wrote:
Hello developers.
I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated).
Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5.
The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5.
So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway).
WDYT?
Guillaume
[1] The code that looks for ref="_blank": https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik... _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne
+1 **provided** we also drop the hack for the form action attribute. IMO if we decide we care only about HTML5 validity then we should stop trying to please both XHTML and HTML5 with sub-optimal HTML5. Thanks, Marius On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <gdelhumeau@xwiki.com> wrote:
Hello developers.
I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated).
Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5.
The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5.
So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway).
WDYT?
Guillaume
[1] The code that looks for ref="_blank": https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik... _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi, What we need to ensure is that people can still continue to write XHTML-valid skins or use existing XHTML skins without problem. +1 to support only HMTL5 **for the Flamingo skin**. Thanks -Vincent On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:12:02, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
Hello developers.
I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated).
Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5.
The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5.
So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway).
WDYT?
Guillaume
[1] The code that looks for ref="_blank": https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik... _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
But Vincent, the problem is that these kind of links are present in wiki pages too, which do not depend on skins. Example, in the watchlist: https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik... 2015-04-08 16:31 GMT+02:00 vincent@massol.net <vincent@massol.net>:
Hi,
What we need to ensure is that people can still continue to write XHTML-valid skins or use existing XHTML skins without problem.
+1 to support only HMTL5 **for the Flamingo skin**.
Thanks -Vincent
On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:12:02, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ( gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
Hello developers.
I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated).
Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5.
The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5.
So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway).
WDYT?
Guillaume
[1] The code that looks for ref="_blank":
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
And the worse case is the XWiki Syntax help page, where we explicitly encourage our users to use the invalid rel="_blank" attribute: https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik... 2015-04-08 16:38 GMT+02:00 Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau < gdelhumeau@xwiki.com>:
But Vincent, the problem is that these kind of links are present in wiki pages too, which do not depend on skins.
Example, in the watchlist:
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
2015-04-08 16:31 GMT+02:00 vincent@massol.net <vincent@massol.net>:
Hi,
What we need to ensure is that people can still continue to write XHTML-valid skins or use existing XHTML skins without problem.
+1 to support only HMTL5 **for the Flamingo skin**.
Thanks -Vincent
On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:12:02, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ( gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
Hello developers.
I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated).
Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5.
The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5.
So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway).
WDYT?
Guillaume
[1] The code that looks for ref="_blank":
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
Ok thanks for the example. I need to think about it a bit more but I don’t like that we break existing skins with more recent versions of apps. We also need to start preparing for supporting several skins in the future. Also using the HTML macro with clean=true should be prohibited in the code we provide IMO. Also right now the HTML Cleaner generates valid XHTML, not valid HTML5 AFAIK so there’s an issue there already, no? If there’s no way to produce HTML code that is valid both in HTML5 and XHTML in our wiki pages then we need to decide what to do: * break XHTML compat for all apps from now on * break XHTML compat for some apps only (decide which one we break and which ones we don’t break) * introduce some API to generate HTML (as Denis suggested at some point) Right now I’m not sure I agree to break XHTML validity for existing xwiki instances when they upgrade to XWiki 7.1+ and when they upgrade the apps they use. I need a bit more time to think about this (especially the consequences) and probably do a brainstorming session with you. Thanks -Vincent On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:40:50, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
And the worse case is the XWiki Syntax help page, where we explicitly encourage our users to use the invalid rel="_blank" attribute: https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
2015-04-08 16:38 GMT+02:00 Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau :
But Vincent, the problem is that these kind of links are present in wiki pages too, which do not depend on skins.
Example, in the watchlist: https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
2015-04-08 16:31 GMT+02:00 vincent@massol.net(mailto:vincent@massol.net) :
Hi,
What we need to ensure is that people can still continue to write XHTML-valid skins or use existing XHTML skins without problem.
+1 to support only HMTL5 **for the Flamingo skin**.
Thanks -Vincent
On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:12:02, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
Hello developers.
I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated).
Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5.
The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5.
So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway).
WDYT?
Guillaume
[1] The code that looks for ref="_blank": https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik... _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org(mailto:devs@xwiki.org) http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
Hi, I would be interested in other examples of where we have problems between XHTML and HTML5, because, IMO, the target="_blank" example is something almost everybody can live without (in XHTML for instance), and, indeed, leave users to open those links in a new tab if that is what they wish (as a "workaround" for apps that were "relying" on that feature). So, in other words, for this particular target="_blank" problem, one option for our applications (that we also validate) would be to not use this feature at all, so that we validate in both HTML5 and XHTML and that we don`t commit to either the flamingo skin nor colibri. Where this is not applicable, my vote obviously goes to moving on to HTML5 and stop dragging dead weight (XHTML). AFAIK, there are no backwards compatibility issues for HTML5 renderers running with XHTML apps, right? This [1] is what I managed to find on a quick search, but it does not suggest problems for HTML5 in supporting XHTML. Thanks, Eduard ---------- [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5#Differences_from_HTML.C2.A04.01_and_XHTML... On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 6:00 PM, vincent@massol.net <vincent@massol.net> wrote:
Ok thanks for the example.
I need to think about it a bit more but I don’t like that we break existing skins with more recent versions of apps. We also need to start preparing for supporting several skins in the future.
Also using the HTML macro with clean=true should be prohibited in the code we provide IMO.
Also right now the HTML Cleaner generates valid XHTML, not valid HTML5 AFAIK so there’s an issue there already, no?
If there’s no way to produce HTML code that is valid both in HTML5 and XHTML in our wiki pages then we need to decide what to do: * break XHTML compat for all apps from now on * break XHTML compat for some apps only (decide which one we break and which ones we don’t break) * introduce some API to generate HTML (as Denis suggested at some point)
Right now I’m not sure I agree to break XHTML validity for existing xwiki instances when they upgrade to XWiki 7.1+ and when they upgrade the apps they use.
I need a bit more time to think about this (especially the consequences) and probably do a brainstorming session with you.
Thanks -Vincent
On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:40:50, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ( gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
And the worse case is the XWiki Syntax help page, where we explicitly encourage our users to use the invalid rel="_blank" attribute:
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
2015-04-08 16:38 GMT+02:00 Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau :
But Vincent, the problem is that these kind of links are present in
wiki pages too, which do not depend on skins.
Example, in the watchlist:
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
2015-04-08 16:31 GMT+02:00 vincent@massol.net(mailto:
vincent@massol.net) :
Hi,
What we need to ensure is that people can still continue to write XHTML-valid skins or use existing XHTML skins without problem.
+1 to support only HMTL5 **for the Flamingo skin**.
Thanks -Vincent
On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:12:02, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ( gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)(mailto: gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
Hello developers.
I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated).
Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5.
The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5.
So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway).
WDYT?
Guillaume
[1] The code that looks for ref="_blank":
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org(mailto:devs@xwiki.org) http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com )) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
After more thinking, and thanks to your opinions, I am looking for other solutions to keep the XHTML validity. Otherwise, all the work to be able to select the skin's output syntax (http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11602) would be useless! I'll try to dig into the HTML cleaner. Maybe we should have a configurable cleaner that allows us to select the output syntax we want. In that case, we could also remove the hacks for the <form> and the <a> tags, since the cleaner would generate the correct code according to the syntax. On the other hand, it means using the HTML cleaner in a lot of places, meanwhile it is frequently disabled for performance reason. The good news is that we now have only 39 validation errors to fix, when we had more than 200, 2 weeks ago. Thanks, Guillaume 2015-04-08 20:54 GMT+02:00 Eduard Moraru <enygma2002@gmail.com>:
Hi,
I would be interested in other examples of where we have problems between XHTML and HTML5, because, IMO, the target="_blank" example is something almost everybody can live without (in XHTML for instance), and, indeed, leave users to open those links in a new tab if that is what they wish (as a "workaround" for apps that were "relying" on that feature).
So, in other words, for this particular target="_blank" problem, one option for our applications (that we also validate) would be to not use this feature at all, so that we validate in both HTML5 and XHTML and that we don`t commit to either the flamingo skin nor colibri.
Where this is not applicable, my vote obviously goes to moving on to HTML5 and stop dragging dead weight (XHTML). AFAIK, there are no backwards compatibility issues for HTML5 renderers running with XHTML apps, right? This [1] is what I managed to find on a quick search, but it does not suggest problems for HTML5 in supporting XHTML.
Thanks, Eduard
---------- [1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5#Differences_from_HTML.C2.A04.01_and_XHTML...
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 6:00 PM, vincent@massol.net <vincent@massol.net> wrote:
Ok thanks for the example.
I need to think about it a bit more but I don’t like that we break existing skins with more recent versions of apps. We also need to start preparing for supporting several skins in the future.
Also using the HTML macro with clean=true should be prohibited in the code we provide IMO.
Also right now the HTML Cleaner generates valid XHTML, not valid HTML5 AFAIK so there’s an issue there already, no?
If there’s no way to produce HTML code that is valid both in HTML5 and XHTML in our wiki pages then we need to decide what to do: * break XHTML compat for all apps from now on * break XHTML compat for some apps only (decide which one we break and which ones we don’t break) * introduce some API to generate HTML (as Denis suggested at some point)
Right now I’m not sure I agree to break XHTML validity for existing xwiki instances when they upgrade to XWiki 7.1+ and when they upgrade the apps they use.
I need a bit more time to think about this (especially the consequences) and probably do a brainstorming session with you.
Thanks -Vincent
On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:40:50, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ( gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
And the worse case is the XWiki Syntax help page, where we explicitly encourage our users to use the invalid rel="_blank" attribute:
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
2015-04-08 16:38 GMT+02:00 Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau :
But Vincent, the problem is that these kind of links are present in
wiki pages too, which do not depend on skins.
Example, in the watchlist:
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
2015-04-08 16:31 GMT+02:00 vincent@massol.net(mailto:
vincent@massol.net) :
Hi,
What we need to ensure is that people can still continue to write XHTML-valid skins or use existing XHTML skins without problem.
+1 to support only HMTL5 **for the Flamingo skin**.
Thanks -Vincent
On 8 Apr 2015 at 16:12:02, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ( gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)(mailto: gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
Hello developers.
I am working on making the HTML 5 code of XWiki valid. But in some places, I cannot do it without breaking the XHTML validity (which Colibri still uses, but this skin is going to be deprecated).
Example: in XHTML 1.0, the attribute target="_blank", for links, is forbidden. In XWiki, we have "fixed" this by using the attribute rel="_blank" instead, and then we have a javascript snippet that dynamically adds the target="_blank" attribute to these links [1]. So the code is valid until the javascript is loaded, which is enough to pass our validation tests. This is not very clean, since the target="_blank" was forbidden by the w3c because they think it should be the user choice to open a link in a new window or not. But nobody respects this, and that is why it is no longer forbidden in HTML5.
The problem we have, is that the value "_blank" is not authorized anymore for the "rel" attribute of the links in HTML5.
So I propose to remove our workaround, which is useless and prohibited for HTML5. As a consequence, we would lose the XHTML validity (which is actually the case when javascript is loaded anyway).
WDYT?
Guillaume
[1] The code that looks for ref="_blank":
https://github.com/xwiki/xwiki-platform/blob/master/xwiki-platform-core/xwik...
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org(mailto:devs@xwiki.org) http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto: gdelhumeau@xwiki.com )) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
-- Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com )) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
participants (5)
-
Eduard Moraru -
Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau -
Marius Dumitru Florea -
Thomas Mortagne -
vincent＠massol.net