On 01 Nov 2013, at 08:58, Thomas Mortagne <thomas.mortagne@xwiki.com> wrote:

That's the icon set we use in l10n wiki so yes it's a good fit but note that having countries flags is one thing, matching them with languages codes in another.

It would be pretty easy to maintain an internal mapping (in code) between a flag image name and a language code. Language codes are pretty much fixed and it should be easy to have that mapping. What am I missing? Thanks -Vincent

An alternative is to export http://l10n.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/L10N/Flags page and update it when we release new version like with translations.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <mariusdumitru.florea@xwiki.com> wrote:

...

Hi devs,

In order to implement http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9512 (display the flag icon and the language pretty name instead of the language code) I need to bundle a flag icon set in XE. The best option seems to be http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/flags/ . They say:

"These flag icons are available for free use for any purpose with no requirement for attribution."

So if no one objects I'm going to add the PNG set to xwiki-platform-web, in webapp/resources/icons/flags . It weights about 130KB.

The alternative is to display only the language pretty name, but it's less nicer.

Or maybe you know a better flag icon set.

Thanks, Marius _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

+1 for bundle On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Vincent Massol <vincent@massol.net> wrote:

Forgot, +1 to bundle http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/flags/

Is it possible to have these flag images brought by one of the xwiki-platform-localization modules in its JAR file?

That would compartiment everything related to localization in one place.

Thanks -Vincent

On 01 Nov 2013, at 09:09, Vincent Massol <vincent@massol.net> wrote:

...

On 01 Nov 2013, at 08:58, Thomas Mortagne <thomas.mortagne@xwiki.com>

wrote:

...

...

That's the icon set we use in l10n wiki so yes it's a good fit but note that having countries flags is one thing, matching them with languages codes in another.

It would be pretty easy to maintain an internal mapping (in code)

between a flag image name and a language code.

...

Language codes are pretty much fixed and it should be easy to have that

mapping.

...

What am I missing?

Thanks -Vincent

...

An alternative is to export http://l10n.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/L10N/Flags page and update it when we release new version like with translations.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <mariusdumitru.florea@xwiki.com> wrote:

...

Hi devs,

In order to implement http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9512 (display the flag icon and the language pretty name instead of the language code) I need to bundle a flag icon set in XE. The best option seems to be http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/flags/ . They say:

"These flag icons are available for free use for any purpose with no requirement for attribution."

So if no one objects I'm going to add the PNG set to xwiki-platform-web, in webapp/resources/icons/flags . It weights about 130KB.

The alternative is to display only the language pretty name, but it's less nicer.

Or maybe you know a better flag icon set.

Thanks, Marius _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Vincent Massol <vincent@massol.net> wrote:

On 01 Nov 2013, at 08:58, Thomas Mortagne <thomas.mortagne@xwiki.com> wrote:

...

That's the icon set we use in l10n wiki so yes it's a good fit but note that having countries flags is one thing, matching them with languages codes in another.

It would be pretty easy to maintain an internal mapping (in code) between a flag image name and a language code.

Language codes are pretty much fixed and it should be easy to have that mapping.

What am I missing?

I'm planning to use this algorithm: getCountryCode (localeString) 1. Create a Locale object from the given locale string. I need a script service for this. I guess the best candidate is $services.localization . I need the Locale object also in order to display the language pretty name. 2. If the Locale object includes a country code (e.g. pt_BR) then return it 3. Lookup the language code in a map that associates a default country code for languages that are spoken in multiple countries (like English). This map should be pretty small, i.e. should not include language codes that are also country codes (like FR). Basically this map contains only language codes that are not country codes. 4. Return the language code as it is probably also the country code (otherwise we would stop at 3.) Thanks, Marius

Thanks -Vincent

...

An alternative is to export http://l10n.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/L10N/Flags page and update it when we release new version like with translations.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <mariusdumitru.florea@xwiki.com> wrote:

...

Hi devs,

In order to implement http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9512 (display the flag icon and the language pretty name instead of the language code) I need to bundle a flag icon set in XE. The best option seems to be http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/flags/ . They say:

"These flag icons are available for free use for any purpose with no requirement for attribution."

So if no one objects I'm going to add the PNG set to xwiki-platform-web, in webapp/resources/icons/flags . It weights about 130KB.

The alternative is to display only the language pretty name, but it's less nicer.

Or maybe you know a better flag icon set.

Thanks, Marius _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

I agree with all the articles Sergiu raised about the fact that flags does not fit perfectly with languages. In particular since I live in two countries that suffer of the misunderstanding. It is not rare that large international sites think that Belgium speaks only dutch, or Luxembourg speaks only german, while in fact both countries speaks three different languages. On the other hand, I have the feeling there is common usage on the web that have created, at least for users, the habit to see graphical representation in the form of flags, that somehow relate with languages. The main problems stated by the article from Sergiu, are: 1) same language in multiple countries 2) different languages in the same country The importance of these problems depends on the choice of languages you propose and the way you localize the site as well. For example, if you have a simple european site with english, french and german localization, using the Union Jack flag for english, the French Tricolour for french, and the flag of Germany for german, would probably no be a problem at all and even appreciated by users to quickly get it. If you have a large international site, and you localize your information by region, having different translations for en-uk, en-us, en-au and more... using flags will also works quite well. You may even for a site using a single english localisation, either use a mix of the Union Jack and the Stars and Stripes, or different localisation choice for each country all pointing to the same results. And for countries with different languages, you may use the same flag, translating the country name next to it into the appropriate language. So representing language by an icon is not a simple +1 ou -1 choice, it depends on situation, and IMO, we should propose it, and improve over time the flexibility to support the different situations properly. Now about the flags we may use, you may want to also have a look at the flags I have created, actually mainly for european countries (bg, cz, de, en, et, fr, hu, lt, mt, pl, ro, sl, us, cn, da, el, es, fi, ga, it, lv, nl, pt, sk, sv), that you may found in the bluebird skin folder on incubator. Here are some samples: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/skin/skins/bluebird/languages/en.png http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/skin/skins/bluebird/languages/fr.png http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/skin/skins/bluebird/languages/ro.png http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/skin/skins/bluebird/languages/usuk.pn... These are all self-made, so clearly free to use for us, and I may as well produce more of them if ever needed, and at larger size also. Using circular form has the advantage to look less like pure flags, and also to allow less gaps between them, while having larger icons. BTW, the bluebirds skin provides choice of languages using these flags when in a multi-lingual wiki, you may test that on myxwiki.org. I am +1 to use some flags (I have a conflict of interest to choose which ones ;) ), provided we allow customization and these are not required. Thanks (and sorry for this finally quite long mail) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <sergiu@xwiki.com> wrote:

-1, flags should not be used for representing languages.

http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-link-lang#flags

http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/2472/how-to-graphically-represent-a-la...

http://www.enlaso.com/Language_Tech_Center/Articles/Using_Symbols_and_Icons_...

http://www.quora.com/Localization-and-Translation/Is-using-a-simplified-flag...

And many many others.

On 11/01/2013 03:36 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:

...

Hi devs,

In order to implement http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9512 (display the flag icon and the language pretty name instead of the language code) I need to bundle a flag icon set in XE. The best option seems to be http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/flags/ . They say:

"These flag icons are available for free use for any purpose with no requirement for attribution."

So if no one objects I'm going to add the PNG set to xwiki-platform-web, in webapp/resources/icons/flags . It weights about 130KB.

The alternative is to display only the language pretty name, but it's less nicer.

Or maybe you know a better flag icon set.

Thanks, Marius

-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

-- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO

On 11/01/2013 01:09 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

On 11/01/2013 10:10 AM, Denis Gervalle wrote:

...

I agree with all the articles Sergiu raised about the fact that flags does not fit perfectly with languages. In particular since I live in two countries that suffer of the misunderstanding. It is not rare that large international sites think that Belgium speaks only dutch, or Luxembourg speaks only german, while in fact both countries speaks three different languages.

On the other hand, I have the feeling there is common usage on the web that have created, at least for users, the habit to see graphical representation in the form of flags, that somehow relate with languages.

Indeed, many sites do this, contrary to best practices. But I haven't seen in a long time a *major* site that does it, and let's not do things just because other do them as well.

...

The main problems stated by the article from Sergiu, are: 1) same language in multiple countries 2) different languages in the same country

The importance of these problems depends on the choice of languages you propose and the way you localize the site as well.

For example, if you have a simple european site with english, french and german localization, using the Union Jack flag for english, the French Tricolour for french, and the flag of Germany for german, would probably no be a problem at all and even appreciated by users to quickly get it.

Yes, that is indeed true. Flags work even better in one of the more common use cases for XWiki, a collaborative intranet for a company with offices in a few countries, to indicate not as much a language, but a country.

...

If you have a large international site, and you localize your information by region, having different translations for en-uk, en-us, en-au and more... using flags will also works quite well.

So and so. It works for differentiating between different country-wise versions of a language, but if you go even larger, what about:

- nl_BE versus fr_BE versus en_BE - different dialects of the same language in a large country? Sicilian versus standard Italian? Even deeper: Western Sicilian versus Ennese versus Pantesco versus... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language#Dialects_of_Sicilian

...

You may even for a site using a single english localisation, either use a mix of the Union Jack and the Stars and Stripes, or different localisation choice for each country all pointing to the same results. And for countries with different languages, you may use the same flag, translating the country name next to it into the appropriate language.

So representing language by an icon is not a simple +1 ou -1 choice, it depends on situation, and IMO, we should propose it, and improve over time the flexibility to support the different situations properly.

Agreed. So, to be clear, I'm not saying -1 for ever using a flag symbol in XWiki, just to the original issue that prompted the discussion, faceted search based on language.

...

Now about the flags we may use, you may want to also have a look at the flags I have created, actually mainly for european countries (bg, cz, de, en, et, fr, hu, lt, mt, pl, ro, sl, us, cn, da, el, es, fi, ga, it, lv, nl, pt, sk, sv), that you may found in the bluebird skin folder on incubator. Here are some samples: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/skin/skins/bluebird/languages/en.png http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/skin/skins/bluebird/languages/fr.png http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/skin/skins/bluebird/languages/ro.png http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/skin/skins/bluebird/languages/usuk.pn...

These are all self-made, so clearly free to use for us, and I may as well produce more of them if ever needed, and at larger size also. Using circular form has the advantage to look less like pure flags, and also to allow less gaps between them, while having larger icons. BTW, the bluebirds skin provides choice of languages using these flags when in a multi-lingual wiki, you may test that on myxwiki.org.

I am +1 to use some flags (I have a conflict of interest to choose which ones ;) ), provided we allow customization and these are not required.

Thanks (and sorry for this finally quite long mail)

While both famfamfam and your icons do look nice, I have to say that I'm not 100% confident in any of them. One thing that is too often ignored is that flag colors are very well defined and should be represented precisely. The French flag isn't just any blue, any white, any red. And while I can see that the underlying color is indeed the right one, the 3D effects added on top of them change the colors significantly. So I'd rather have a less shiny version of flags that have more of the original colors in them.

Plus, this also goes in the "flat" direction that interface design is into right now.

famfamfam isn't that polished and consistent, it looks very amateurish. I've looked at the ad, md, ro and td flags (all of which are blue-yellow-red), and they have different border shadings (the ro one is missing shading on the red color completely, unlike the others, and some look more 3D than others), the aspect of the colors are wrong (they should be different, but not as they are now, whith md blue=ro blue, and ad blue so much lighter it looks like sky blue), they don't respect the required proportions (ad should have a wider yellow strip)...

Another concern is that these icons are very small raster images, so they can't be nicely scaled to fit larger UIs.

I don't have a good solution for the moment.

http://flags.blogpotato.de/ looks a bit better than famfamfam (it has more flags, larger icons, marker and round flags, look a bit more polished, but still not perfect).

Another option would be to spend time into designing scalable SVG images, and offer them as another free alternative (as good citizens of the internet), but that's not something that is our responsibility.

Actually most flags already have a SVG version on WikiPedia, uncopyrighted, so we could use them.

Something that works for simpler flags is to design them as CSS icons, which doesn't require any image at all. This can be done ad-hoc as needed for each flag, and doesn't require any external resource.

So, since we don't have a perfect solution, and the need for flag icons has been postponed, I'd rather not hurry and add something we might regret later. Let's not forget that this is a kind of an API once we add them, and would require respecting the backwards compatibility policy to remove or replace them.

-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu