On Mar 23, 2009, at 11:51 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:

Vincent Massol wrote:

...

Hi devs,

We need to define a strategy for better handling translations. I've had a call with Guillaume and Jean-Vincent and here's the process we'd like to propose:

* One person is in charge of http://l10n.xwiki.org/. This means monitoring the work there, coordinating validation of key values and ensuring validated translations are incorporated in the source tree. Guillaume is willing to take that role for now. * The XE release manager has the responsibility of taking the validated keys on l10n.xwiki.org and committing them during the Milestone 2 dev (before the RC1). * The l10n manager should ping the release manager whenever there are translated and validated keys ready to be incorporated or if there have been important changes to be included in the release after M2 has been released. * The l10n manager should test XE and the applications after the keys have been applied to ensure quality. Basically the l10n manager is responsible for the quality of translations in general.

Since Guillaume or any other l10n manager doesn't know all the languages he will need help from native speakers to ensure the quality of the translations.

Definitely this is why I said "coordinating validation of key values". Thanks -Vincent

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Here's my +1

+1

...

Thanks -Vincent

Hi Ricardo, On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 1:34 PM, [Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team <webmaster@environmentalchange.net> wrote:

Hi devs!

I hope it is OK to follow this thread with some L18n questions. Please, see below.

Vincent Massol wrote:

...

On Mar 23, 2009, at 11:51 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:

...

Vincent Massol wrote:

...

Hi devs,

We need to define a strategy for better handling translations. I've had a call with Guillaume and Jean-Vincent and here's the process we'd like to propose:

* One person is in charge of http://l10n.xwiki.org/. This means monitoring the work there, coordinating validation of key values and ensuring validated translations are incorporated in the source tree. Guillaume is willing to take that role for now. * The XE release manager has the responsibility of taking the validated keys on l10n.xwiki.org and committing them during the Milestone 2 dev (before the RC1). * The l10n manager should ping the release manager whenever there are translated and validated keys ready to be incorporated or if there have been important changes to be included in the release after M2 has been released. * The l10n manager should test XE and the applications after the keys have been applied to ensure quality. Basically the l10n manager is responsible for the quality of translations in general.

Since Guillaume or any other l10n manager doesn't know all the languages he will need help from native speakers to ensure the quality of the translations.

Definitely this is why I said "coordinating validation of key values".

Thanks -Vincent

A member of our team has been working on the XE Galician (gl) translation. Once all the string has been translated, he has also checked the "Validate with no change" to get them included in the next XE release. But we have some doubts about the process:

1. Why are there a different number of keys for each language? As far as we understand, each translation must content the same number of keys than the default translation (English, to the best of my knowledge).

2. How "validation" is performed? If we as translators are able of validation our own translation, it has not much sense to add this extra step. On the other side, for certain languages as Galician, it won't be easy to get a "validator" other than the person that did the translation.

It can still be useful to review yourself. I do it for myself with French and I sometimes spot mistakes I made myself :-) The best would be to find someone else to perform the review, since reviewing takes a lot less time than translating in the first place it would be very cool if you could find a second galician-speaking person to perform the review.

3. When a given Application Resource file of a given language is officially released?

Right before each release the developer in charge of the release usually takes the latest version of every language's ApplicationResourcesProperties file and commits it if some new key translations were added for that language since the last release. Guillaume

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Here's my +1

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+1

...

Thanks -Vincent

---

devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Thanks for your help,

Ricardo

-- Ricardo Rodríguez Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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-- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki SAS Skype: wikibc Twitter: glerouge http://guillaumelerouge.com/

Hello Ricardo, I think I know the answer to this, I remember reading something that lead me to think that if there is no translation for a given key, the default (English) version is used instead. I didn't test it so I might be wrong... Caleb James DeLisle [Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team wrote:

Thanks, Guillaume!

Please, let me insist in a the remaining question:

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...

1. Why are there a different number of keys for each language? As far as we understand, each translation must content the same number of keys than the default translation (English, to the best of my knowledge).

Cheers!

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 14:48, [Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team <webmaster@environmentalchange.net> wrote:

Thanks, Caleb,

Caleb James DeLisle wrote:

...

Hello Ricardo,     I think I know the answer to this, I remember reading something that lead me to think that if there is no translation for a given key, the default (English) version is used instead.

I didn't test it so I might be wrong...

Caleb James DeLisle

I think this is right. But it does explain the cases where the number of translations in a given language is less than the default one. Actually, none of the current XE translations is in this situation.

Let's concentrate on http://l10n.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/XE/XWikiCoreResources

The default one has 2048 translations. pt, ro, lv and ko translations have the same number. I guess they are the same keys included in the default translation and that the people in charge of these four files have did the perfectly work.

Gl has 2073 translations and 25 dead translations. The difference is 2048. Perfect! But, why don't remove the dead translations from the resources file in each language? In other way, how to remove dead translations from a given language?

Yes it's a dead translation issue and the answer is something like: for now the choice has been to safest one (don't automatically delete anything to not loose history) and no one had time to think a lot more about how to deal with dead translations. We should maybe remove the "Number of translations" and "Number of dead translations" column since it does not bring any value IMO. The important ones are "Number of Empty/outdated translations". Note that if you absolutely want to do some cleanup, each translation value has it's own document so you just need to delete the corresponding page (click on the link in the "Key" column to do to the page).

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[Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team wrote:

...

Thanks, Guillaume!

Please, let me insist in a the remaining question:

...

...

1. Why are there a different number of keys for each language? As far as we understand, each translation must content the same number of keys than the default translation (English, to the best of my knowledge).

Cheers!

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Thanks!

-- Ricardo Rodríguez Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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-- Thomas Mortagne

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 21:01, [Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team <webmaster@environmentalchange.net> wrote:

Hi Thomas.

Thomas Mortagne wrote:

...

Yes it's a dead translation issue and the answer is something like: for now the choice has been to safest one (don't automatically delete anything to not loose history) and no one had time to think a lot more about how to deal with dead translations.

We should maybe remove the "Number of translations" and "Number of dead translations" column since it does not bring any value IMO. The important ones are "Number of Empty/outdated translations".

Note that if you absolutely want to do some cleanup, each translation value has it's own document so you just need to delete the corresponding page (click on the link in the "Key" column to do to the page).

Ok, I get the point. Thanks.

Just two more doubts:

1. What is expected to get when I click the "Compare with Application Resource" link? Must I get some kind of list of differences between ApplicationResources.properties and the same file of any given translation?

For example for Galician it's supposed to compare ApplicationResources_gl.properties and the current state of the Galician translations values in http://l10n.xwiki.org

2. Concerning dead translations. There are at least two keys in the Galician translation that I don't understand why are not included in the default ApplicationResources.properties

http://l10n.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/XE/XEXWikiCoreResources_-1793646742_gal... http://l10n.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/XE/XEXWikiCoreResources_-899451350_slov...

As far as I understand, each resources file must contain the translation to its language of all the other available languages, mustn't it? Thus, each time a new language is available, a new key must be included in all resources files. Coming back to the same example, I am not able to find the key galician in the default ApplicationResources.properties file.

Indeed it seems weird since there is "english", "french", "german", etc. but actually i'm not sure theses are used.

Please, am I wrong? Must this key be included in ApplicationResources.properties?

If it was keys like "language.fr", "language.en", etc. yes but i don't see how theses keys could be used.

Thanks!

Ricardo

-- Ricardo Rodríguez Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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-- Thomas Mortagne

+1 Thomas Mortagne a écrit :

+1

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:25, Vincent Massol <vincent@massol.net> wrote:

...

Hi devs,

We need to define a strategy for better handling translations. I've had a call with Guillaume and Jean-Vincent and here's the process we'd like to propose:

* One person is in charge of http://l10n.xwiki.org/. This means monitoring the work there, coordinating validation of key values and ensuring validated translations are incorporated in the source tree. Guillaume is willing to take that role for now. * The XE release manager has the responsibility of taking the validated keys on l10n.xwiki.org and committing them during the Milestone 2 dev (before the RC1). * The l10n manager should ping the release manager whenever there are translated and validated keys ready to be incorporated or if there have been important changes to be included in the release after M2 has been released. * The l10n manager should test XE and the applications after the keys have been applied to ensure quality. Basically the l10n manager is responsible for the quality of translations in general.

Here's my +1

Thanks -Vincent

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-- Ludovic Dubost Blog: http://blog.ludovic.org/ XWiki: http://www.xwiki.com Skype: ldubost GTalk: ldubost

Vincent Massol wrote:

I forgot to mention that in order to better handle translations I think we need to do 3 things: - add support for importing languages in the XAR import screen (listing all languages available in a XAR and offering checkboxes to choose them) - add a document resource bundle component that observes document changes and adds document resource bundles to $msg (we need a class for document resource bundle for this)

Yes this one is key, right now it prevent us to distribute applications with a l10n resource bundle, so we are _forced_ to hardcode messages :) Big +1 Jerome.

- rework some app translations so that we use translations instead of key/values.

Thanks -Vincent

On Mar 23, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:

...

Hi devs,

We need to define a strategy for better handling translations. I've had a call with Guillaume and Jean-Vincent and here's the process we'd like to propose:

* One person is in charge of http://l10n.xwiki.org/. This means monitoring the work there, coordinating validation of key values and ensuring validated translations are incorporated in the source tree. Guillaume is willing to take that role for now. * The XE release manager has the responsibility of taking the validated keys on l10n.xwiki.org and committing them during the Milestone 2 dev (before the RC1). * The l10n manager should ping the release manager whenever there are translated and validated keys ready to be incorporated or if there have been important changes to be included in the release after M2 has been released. * The l10n manager should test XE and the applications after the keys have been applied to ensure quality. Basically the l10n manager is responsible for the quality of translations in general.

Here's my +1

Thanks -Vincent

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Ludovic Dubost wrote:

Jerome Velociter a écrit :

...

Vincent Massol wrote:

...

I forgot to mention that in order to better handle translations I think we need to do 3 things: - add support for importing languages in the XAR import screen (listing all languages available in a XAR and offering checkboxes to choose them) - add a document resource bundle component that observes document changes and adds document resource bundles to $msg (we need a class for document resource bundle for this)

Don't we already have that as long as we declare resources in the prefs ?

Yes but we have no clean way to do this from the application itself. What I meant is that we cannot distribute a packaged application with resource bundle unless "pointing to the translation document in the preferences" is part of the install process. I think it complexify installation for users and discourage developers to make their application translated, so this is the step we should get rid of. Jerome.

...

Yes this one is key, right now it prevent us to distribute applications with a l10n resource bundle, so we are _forced_ to hardcode messages :)

Big +1

Jerome.

...

- rework some app translations so that we use translations instead of key/values.

Thanks -Vincent

On Mar 23, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:

...

Hi devs,

We need to define a strategy for better handling translations. I've had a call with Guillaume and Jean-Vincent and here's the process we'd like to propose:

* One person is in charge of http://l10n.xwiki.org/. This means monitoring the work there, coordinating validation of key values and ensuring validated translations are incorporated in the source tree. Guillaume is willing to take that role for now. * The XE release manager has the responsibility of taking the validated keys on l10n.xwiki.org and committing them during the Milestone 2 dev (before the RC1). * The l10n manager should ping the release manager whenever there are translated and validated keys ready to be incorporated or if there have been important changes to be included in the release after M2 has been released. * The l10n manager should test XE and the applications after the keys have been applied to ensure quality. Basically the l10n manager is responsible for the quality of translations in general.

Here's my +1

Thanks -Vincent

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 09:16, Vincent Massol <vincent@massol.net> wrote:

I forgot to mention that in order to better handle translations I think we need to do 3 things: - add support for importing languages in the XAR import screen (listing all languages available in a XAR and offering checkboxes to choose them) - add a document resource bundle component that observes document changes and adds document resource bundles to $msg (we need a class for document resource bundle for this)

Note: this is done by automatically application manager plugin if the application come with an application descriptor listing its translation documents. We could use this for XE as it's used on XEM for application manager, wiki manager application and XEM application.

- rework some app translations so that we use translations instead of key/values.

Thanks -Vincent

On Mar 23, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:

...

Hi devs,

We need to define a strategy for better handling translations. I've had a call with Guillaume and Jean-Vincent and here's the process we'd like to propose:

* One person is in charge of http://l10n.xwiki.org/. This means monitoring the work there, coordinating validation of key values and ensuring validated translations are incorporated in the source tree. Guillaume is willing to take that role for now. * The XE release manager has the responsibility of taking the validated keys on l10n.xwiki.org and committing them during the Milestone 2 dev (before the RC1). * The l10n manager should ping the release manager whenever there are translated and validated keys ready to be incorporated or if there have been important changes to be included in the release after M2 has been released. * The l10n manager should test XE and the applications after the keys have been applied to ensure quality. Basically the l10n manager is responsible for the quality of translations in general.

Here's my +1

Thanks -Vincent

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-- Thomas Mortagne